Dark Romance: With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility w. @words_are_a_kink
Welcome to this episode featuring researcher and kink practitioner Miriam (@words_are_a_kink). This conversation examines the psychological and physical impacts of Dark Romance literature, social media trends, and AI chat apps.
While BDSM practitioners rely on consent, clear boundaries, and aftercare to maintain safety, Dark Romance literature often strips away these protective frameworks. Viral trends on BookTok expose young audiences to extreme themes without age restrictions, blurring the line between fictional tropes and real-world relationships. You will hear how first-person storytelling affects brain processing, why AI chat technology creates unmonitored risks, and how creators and readers can enjoy fantasy while prioritizing safety in reality.
Key Points
Defining Dark Romance: Dark Romance is a subgenre of erotic literature built around themes of coercion, power imbalances, stalking, and non-consensual scenarios framed as romantic desire.
The influence of BookTok: Social media platforms hype extreme books to large audiences. A vast percentage of readers on platforms like Wattpad are young women and teenagers who encounter graphic content without age filters or safety warnings.
First-person immersion and brain response: Reading intense material in the first person creates visceral immersion. When trauma or threat responses repeatedly connect with sexual arousal, your brain wires these sensations together.
Fantasy versus real-world BDSM: BDSM in reality demands negotiation, active consent, capacity, and aftercare. Dark Romance removes these frameworks, creating a false expectation that real-world submission requires total loss of control or endurance of harm.
Risks of AI chat apps: Interactive AI bots allow users to roleplay dark romance scripts. Unlike human partners, AI cannot read tone or body language, and many bots bypass safe words or actively encourage non-consensual dynamics.
Promoting safety and education: Protecting readers does not require censorship or moral judgment of fantasy. Publishers, authors, and platforms must take responsibility by age-gating graphic material, providing clear trigger warnings, and educating audiences on healthy relationship boundaries.
Timestamps
00:00 Disclaimer
00:58 How we met/Intro
02:59 What is Dark Romance?
06:02 How Did You Come Across Dark Romance And What Is The Concern?
09:21 The Dangers of Unregulated Content
18:17 The Influence of Book Talk and Community
23:57 Navigating Fantasy vs. Reality in BDSM
29:30 Finding Balance: Enjoying Dark Romance Safely
33:16 Why is Dark Romance so magnetic?
38:47 The Impact of AI on Relationships and Fantasy
43:09 The Dangers of Dark Romance and AI Interactions
47:13 Cultural Implications of Dark Romance and Gender Dynamics
49:19 The Importance of Mental Health Awareness in Dark Romance
50:59 Safety and Education in the Realm of Dark Romance
52:22 Statements
Transcript
Please note: This transcript has been corrected using AI since the original software does not do a great job. There may be small errors.
Sergio Rebelo (00:00) Listeners, I want to start today by saying that this is one of the more challenging episodes I've done on this podcast. It contains very intense and sensitive material, and it's a conversation that requires a high level of care. Please be advised that we will be discussing themes alongside graphic examples of coercive control, trauma responses, and non-consensual sexual experiences. I encourage you to prioritise your well-being and take care while listening.
The following conversation explores the psychological and physiological impacts of Dark Romance and its relationship to real-world BDSM. Our guest today is a researcher, BDSM practitioner, and advocate for awareness and harm reduction. The discussion is not an argument for censorship or moral judgment on fiction; rather, it is a deep look into how our brains process intense media and how we can ensure that fantasy remains a safe and empowering space in reality. Again, take care while listening.
Sergio Rebelo (00:58) Miriam, it's absolutely wonderful to have you on the podcast. Thank you for joining us.
Miriam (01:02) Thank you so much for the invitation. Pleasure to be here.
Sergio Rebelo (01:05) Good. So I came across your Instagram profile, Words Are A Kink, and I was really taken away by how much depth and nuance you were able to articulate around the BDSM and kink world. I thought, this is a person who understands the nature, what's important, what are the dangers, what are the benefits of this sort of play. And again, as I said, the posts that you put speak directly past what we typically can find or understand about kink and BDSM, and you go straight to the heart of what it actually is to be in the experience of it. So that really blew me away.
And then what I realised is, so then I made contact with you, and I wanted to talk about certain parts of the BDSM experience and the nuance within that. And then in our conversations, what sort of happened was you started to share with me Dark Romance. And this is a real blind spot that I, in my profession and in my personal life, had no idea about. And the more you started to speak, and the more we started to engage with that sort of subject matter, it dawned on me that this is a whole side of the BDSM kink world that is present, and I don't think, for a large part, of maybe professional therapists in my field, that we know about, at least not to the detail that we're going to be exploring here today.
So I am absolutely excited to have this conversation about Dark Romance, AI, and BookTok, and how this is all kind of related. So maybe a good place to start is people who may not know what Dark Romance is?
Miriam (02:59) Well, Dark Romance is basically romance books which are built around like danger, obsession, power imbalance, and really often like coercion, coded dynamics. The key things there are often like control, fear, and in many books, there's also like violence. And this is framed not as like, this is something dangerous, but this is what the love story is. This is what love is. This is like sexy, it's emotionally meaningful, and this is the love story. That there would not be a love story without these like negative elements, which are framed as romance and love and depth and desire, and yeah, that's what in these Dark Romance books is.
Sergio Rebelo (03:57) Yeah, so it's like a form of erotic literature, but it has the dark at the front of it, so Dark Romance. And some of the characteristics that you describe is that it holds these elements of violence, coercion, manipulation, and that's embedded within the literature. So that's what sets it quite unique or quite differently from other forms of erotic literature, is that it has that more deviant layer to it. Would that be a fair statement?
Miriam (04:31) Yeah, in other books, there might be like BDSM elements as well, but in these books, they're not like two people who are getting to know each other, falling in love and maybe having like, you know, rough stuff going on. But it's like, you know, someone is like stalking someone else, or there's so-called dubious consent in these books, or even non-consent. And that's what's going on. And sometimes, well, violence, psychological or physical, and this is framed as what gets this couple glued together. And there might even be like stuff like Stockholm syndrome, which gets sold as love, or like victim blaming when someone's saying, "Oh, you got wet, you know you wanted it".
And it's okay, because, you know, this is part of what many people have in their mind, and all these fantasies, a lot of people do have these fantasies when they're alone. But these are books built right on that.
Sergio Rebelo (05:44) Yeah, like I think of, if I have to say, is Fifty Shades of Grey a Dark Romance book, you would say no, because it's got a lot of narrative or...
Miriam (05:54) Dark Romance, I think it's part of Dark Romance, but speaking of Dark Romance, Fifty Shades of Grey is like nothing. It's like, you know, in the scale of what's available in Dark Romance, that's like kindergarten. That's like the easiest, softest to read. That's like all butterflies and roses.
Sergio Rebelo (06:02) So maybe let's go back a step here, and like, how did you come to find out about Dark Romance? Like what's your position or what's your involvement in it?
Miriam (06:12) It all started like more than 18 months ago. I stumbled across a BookTok video, and there was a young woman who broke up with her boyfriend, and she wanted to leave the room, and he's been grabbing her by the throat and pushing her against the wall and said, "You're not going anywhere". And then I was like, huh?
And I had a look into the comments, and there were like thousands of comments of especially young women, some underaged, saying, "I need someone like that, where can I get a boyfriend like that, this is exactly what I want, this is what I need, if he's any different, I don't want it". And I was like, wow.
I couldn't get it, because in my opinion, when you want to leave someone and this person starts grabbing you at your throat without any consent, any asking, any safety, anything, that would scare the shit out of me. And I didn't see how especially young girls could say, yeah, this is what I want. And this is how I started like researching 18 months ago, and this is what finally has been leading me here today.
Sergio Rebelo (07:44) Yeah, when you say researching, what do you mean? Did you do surveys, or have you looked at data or anything?
Miriam (07:51) It was a lot. I've been doing interviews with dozens of Doms all around the world by now to find out how this is getting into kink and BDSM, and DS and everything. But I also started to search for, how is that possible? By which ways, like psychologically, can that happen?
For me, that was a moment where I felt like, can I do that? Am I allowed to do that? Because I'm not a psychologist, I did not study that. But I felt the urge that I could not wait for someone else to do that when I feel that there's a threat out there. We all know about the manosphere and no one denies that there is danger by that, and I also saw, I don't say any of that is bad by all means in general, but there is a danger to it which may affect some people.
And I felt like waiting for someone else to take responsibility would be the wrong way. I just wanted to say, I am doing what I can right now with what I have and with the information I can get out there to understand what's going on and to tell people, enjoy your fantasy, enjoy the books, but this is what you need to know and this is how you can stay safe doing that.
Sergio Rebelo (09:21) So it sounds like you very early on, in fact, the first meeting of this, you recognised that there was very dark material, very upsetting dark material, and that there was an incredibly large audience engaging with it in a positive, desiring, "this is what I want, nothing else will match" way. So there was this kind of strange disconnect between, wait a minute, I myself as a kink practitioner, I can understand dark elements within the bedroom, within the between people, but this seems to have a different layer to it or something that it's lacking a container or a particular boundary, and this is quite shocking to me, and I want to investigate more and more. So does that sound right?
Miriam (10:27) Yes, yes, absolutely. I think, you know, people reading these books conscious and having like a clear picture of what healthy love and of what healthy relationships with BDSM elements look like, I think they're fine, they're absolutely fine. But I think there are people out there who don't know, especially the young ones.
So I've been looking at statistics from Wattpad, where this stuff gets published as well, and 80% of the users are women between 13 and 25. Wow. And I mean, there's like so hard violence, it's like even going into gore. And for books, there is no age restriction.
So there are some really good distributors who start saying, okay, this is an 18+ book, I'm not going to sell this to minors, which I think is amazing because no one forces them to do that. But that these companies start doing that, and leaving away money, is telling me they're seeing a responsibility there, and that is for a reason, and I think we should talk about it.
Sergio Rebelo (11:58) Yeah, because I do recall in an email you sent me that if this same material was put into video games and TV shows, it would legally have an age restriction on it because it's not appropriate.
Miriam (12:15) They would not be allowed to publish that. There was a video game, for example, where you've been playing a perpetrator, and your goal was to rape as many people as brutally as possible. And this was like online, I think for maybe two or three weeks, I don't remember that. And also, if you see the amount of violence in these books, maybe this needs to be cut out, I'm not sure, but there was stuff like pregnant women having their skin removed piece by piece.
Sergio Rebelo (12:56) Wow.
Miriam (12:57) Like, there was a book I came along, there were like, they're called barely legal, so the people in there are sometimes said they're 18, sometimes they don't speak about age at all, but they're often portrayed in a way, and there are also minors in these books which are victims to that. So there's so much going on, and this would be like rape in that case, and while telling people, you know, you want that, you need that, and ending up with like severe Stockholm syndrome, and impossible. Some of these books are so full of violence in so disturbing ways.
And I'm from the BDSM community, you know, I have covered in bruises and I had like, you know, skin tears and stuff like that, but the violence in these books, and I've been reading like just reading through it to see what's in there and reading what people say about these books, got me like throwing up two times. And I had to learn myself to set boundaries here.
And when you see what's in these books and you think about like police officers or psychologists who have to constantly deal with people telling them these things, they have supervision, they have people taking care of them, and there are people out there who are just consuming and consuming and consuming, and I think that we need to talk about it so people know how to enjoy and how to stay safe at the same time.
Sergio Rebelo (14:52) Yeah, because one thing that is great about BDSM practice in the material world is that in the day-to-day, there's an aftercare. And you have a place to take whatever affects you, or whatever you want to celebrate, you have a place to take that, either with your partner, or with a casual partner, or with a therapist, or with a friend, or your BDSM community who's all kind of watching out for you. But this, as you describe it, feels as if this is kind of, so when you say BookTok, I'm thinking TikTok, but with books, or book reviews. Is that accurate?
Miriam (15:37) Yeah, it's mostly from TikTok, it also happens on Instagram as well. It is for the books to get discovered and hyped and they're talking about it, but they're also taking scenes and characters out of it and making these little movies where like someone's rubber breaking into a house and there's a woman sleeping, and he's approaching her and like just grabbing her throat and stuff like that. So it's everything around.
Sergio Rebelo (16:16) Yeah, so it's a material that's uncontained. You know, people can access it on their phones, it's uncontained so you can't have a place to debrief or to even check, is this right, is this not right, is this what everyone does, or does no one do this, am I safe here? So the technology it comes through doesn't allow for this sort of safe rails or safeguarding. That's one of it, yeah.
Miriam (16:47) Mainly, I think if we look at one aspect of BDSM, it would be CNC. So these books like to take everything that comes after the negotiation, when the scene starts, until the scene ends, but they take away everything that's around it. So there's no safety framework, they don't talk about consent, about agency, about capacity, about desire, about whether or not there are triggers or not, and everything that BDSM does so well when it's done healthy to keep people as safe as possible while fulfilling their desire.
And I think people who come into BDSM from Dark Romance, they do have even a higher possibility of discovering these safety frameworks which need to be built around it so you can stay safe, in comparison to people who might get to know someone out of the manosphere. Because if you have this picture of these books in your head and you have no one to talk about, and then you get to know someone and say, yeah, what's in these books is completely right, so now you and me...
Sergio Rebelo (18:11) Yeah.
Miriam (18:12) So that's even more dangerous from my point of view.
Sergio Rebelo (18:15) Yeah, because if it's the first inception of BDSM, if it's someone's first exposure to it, then that's the frame of reference that they're going to be living from. So yeah, as you say, yes, but the books say this, and this is how it's meant to look, and you're meant to feel this way, and you're meant to be in danger and you're meant to not like it, but then at the end you're meant to desire it as well. It's infused with romance, you know, this is what romance looks like, and that's very dangerous, especially when it's your first exposure to romance itself, but BDSM. Because BDSM is the place where it says, at least initially, this is welcome, but BDSM as experienced practitioners has safety and consent around it, and a mature emotional understanding of what is play, taking it too far and not, there's a real intuition that happens within a scene. So it's a very risky form of erotic material.
I mean, it's very dangerous, but I think that there's an audience, that's one thing, so people are getting something from it, we can't deny that, and I don't think you're advocating get rid of it, delete it, I don't think you're advocating that at all. I think there's actually a lot to say, this is speaking to us for a reason, we can really enjoy it if we have the right understanding of BDSM and the right frame of mind, but it has a higher risk of it not doing that.
Miriam (20:25) Yeah, I think there are real like good things about these books, because they are getting kink out of the shadows, and they are making it more accessible to people, and it may find them to like find stuff they would enjoy, to find their kink and to feel like it's okay to live it and to try it. And well, if it's only reading that and enjoying that for yourself and not getting into it at all, that's completely fine. I mean, people are supposed to enjoy this.
The only thing I want is, I think we need to have more knowledge out there and maybe even have the writers and book industry and everything to take more responsibility, also like BookTok and stuff, to keep these people safe. So I cannot sell something without taking responsibility for what it may cause. And I think that's quite important, and I don't think anyone in the book industry does want to endanger someone, in no way. So this is like a great example that there are book companies who say, okay, 18, we're not selling under 18. And this is perfect and this is, I think, the right way to go. So have people enjoy the stuff, discover their kink, get into this beautiful world, but please people stay safe within it and let's take responsibility for that and communicate that.
Sergio Rebelo (22:04) I'm wondering, who writes this material? Is it people, or is it AI as well, or is it both, or is it hard to know?
Miriam (22:15) Well, I think at the moment it's like the second biggest selling part in the book industry, so it's like huge. The numbers I have in my head, I don't have them printed out here, so don't take them for granted, but I think there are like 60,000 books sold per day in Germany or something like that, which is huge, which is huge.
And of course, a lot of people write that, and there's like, you know, people who are just getting into writing and they are self-publishing little books, but there are also like real big books who are sold million times over the world and they are professional writers. And I also found like psychologists writing these books, and like really heavy, heavy stuff, like real, so there's a piece of that which is called most controversial. And yeah, there are like 1 to 10, and they are sold as young adult books where like all the violence and toxic stuff is not as heavy, which is just like a little bit in there, but there are books which like, they are...
Sergio Rebelo (23:55) Yeah.
Miriam (23:56) Yeah, you really have to know how to deal with that stuff when you read it, or just don't.
Sergio Rebelo (24:02) Yeah, I mean, I think I even requested if you could send me some material, and then I was like, just show me like level one of, if level 10 is the most extreme, show me like level one, level two, and even the stuff that you showed me, which was highly sensitive, was quite affecting. And I'm experienced, you know, I'm a therapist, I'm a BDSM practitioner, I've seen a lot, I've engaged in a lot, and even what you showed me, I thought, yeah, this is not right. And you know, there is a context, but I am able to know there's a context and feel still there's something very risky and unsettling even just by the things that you shared with me.
Miriam (24:56) What disturbs me as well is like when there's a BookTok video and there's like the burglar getting into a house and grabbing a woman, and then for some videos, not low numbers, but many videos you can find hundreds or thousands of comments of women writing underneath, "I want that". So, and these women have their profile pictures out there, and when you go into their profiles, you might even be able to get their account information and see which country they're writing from.
And there are predators out there who, you know, this is dangerous, and if they approach you and feel like you don't have any experience and you don't know about safety and stuff like that, that gets dangerous. And I think that should, see that like really, that's making, yeah...
Sergio Rebelo (26:07) Yeah, yeah, it's quite unsettling, yeah.
Miriam (26:10) And the next stuff is for me like also dangerous, we all read these books, we may use them in the next step or something like AI chat apps, which are used by some where you can play through these scenarios, and then we might be like really confident that this is sexy and that we want something like this to happen. But what we do not know is we did read that and it was made in our mind to be sexy.
And I think there's this, you know, like neurons that fire together wire together. So threat can be coded in our mind like this is arousing. And we can really feel that urge and like, yeah, this is what I want. But what we never had while reading that, and no matter how often we play through that in any chat app or read that in a book, we never felt someone who's grabbing our throat. We never felt pain.
And in the moment where these things come together, I think this is like dangerous again, because we might agree up to stuff we are not ready for yet, especially if it's too much at once, and that can cause really much stress as well for the submissive person who agreed upon that. But also if that person goes into freeze or fawn or dissociation, this can also cause harm in a dominant person who would be responsible and who thought, she agreed, she was completely confident about everything, and then they suddenly both have to deal with something they did not see coming.
So here is always like, if you're in a hurry, go slow, take it step by step, because there's also something I say, in math, 1 + 1 is 2, in BDSM 1 + 1 might be 5, or 1 + 1 + 1 might be 276, and then your mind is like, panic attack, dissociation, whatever. So if you're in a hurry, build and go slow.
Sergio Rebelo (28:44) Yeah, so pace and slowness. I like that algorithm, so 1 + 1 is what I think it is, and what they think it is, might not equal 2, it's going to equal something that we never even accounted for, or something way down the track, so it's a real disconnect. That's a very lovely way of thinking about BDSM, and even more the reason, as you say, to go slow, to pace yourself with this.
So am I hearing this correct, where when a person engages with this material, they begin to romanticise and idealise particular extreme forms of sex? So it could be like hard impact play, strangulation, and this is being absorbed whilst they're aroused, but when they go and want to explore it in the quote "real world" with another person, they may want to imitate what they felt turned on by when reading, they'll want to imitate that, ask for it, beg for it, whatever the roleplay demands, but they want to reenact it, and then when it actually happens, that's the "wait a minute, this is a very different experience from the safety of my home reading a book where I can imagine it".
And imagination, especially erotic imagination, is very good at editing out negative things. It only will latch onto, "this is great, I can feel the power, I can feel the passion". But when it's reenacted or asked for in the day-to-day, or sorry, with another person, that's the fright. "Wait a minute, this is scary, I don't like this, I don't like the smells, I don't like the sounds, I don't like the pressure, the texture," and that's a huge fright that happens in the moment.
And then what do you do about that? How can you resolve that? "Well, I've had no one to help me understand what to do in the moment if I don't like it, I don't know if this person is going to be knowledgeable about that as well". So it's a really kind of like, you're putting yourself in danger. You're putting yourself in danger.
Miriam (31:21) Yeah, and I think what's happening there as well is cognitive dissonance. Because on the one hand, you really feel like you're confident you want that, and then you feel like, "Oh my god, I don't want that, but I want that," and then you're like, yeah...
And that's not the only thing, because this threat and control and like stalking and stuff is framed in there as love and interest and intensity and stuff like that. So it's not only from my point of view that it's dangerous to start too fast in sex and not having the knowledge how to keep it safe in that moment, but it can also fuck up a picture of how a healthy relationship or an intense relationship looks like with depth and you feel deeply connected to someone.
And this is for me another thing, especially for young people who do not have experience in that, who do not have like healthy pictures of how healthy relationships and love look like. And this is also something we need to talk about, we need to educate people.
Some books really say that at the beginning, that please people, that they've been seeing online how this gets idealised and how people think they want someone like that. This is even in some of the books, and this is like again, people taking over responsibility in a very good way, but there are so many books out there who say like stuff like, "So this is the trigger warning list, now if this is too much for you, little girl, go play with your dolls and go read about fairy tales," so they're making it a challenge to read and finish that book, and they don't talk about, "So this is toxic what I'm writing here, this is dangerous, and if you feel you want that in real life, please talk to someone, don't go online and go searching for a guy who says yeah, I'm giving you that".
Sergio Rebelo (33:55) Yeah, yeah, because it's hidden underneath the themes of romance, love, connection, intimacy, so it's a very deceptive in that respect.
Miriam (34:10) Yeah, I don't know how big this influence is. I do get a little idea of it by the numbers that I've been researching and reading, but going into that I think that would be too much, but I think we only have to look at the manosphere maybe, and also at how the numbers of sex toys increased in getting sold only by Fifty Shades of Grey. So then we might have an idea of how big the influence of these books and of BookTok also is.
And BookTok also, if you're like still thinking, "I'm not sure about that, but I want that," and you're getting into a bubble where tens of thousands of people are telling you, "Yeah, this is great, this is cool, and we all want that, and this is the relationship goal to go for," you stop doubting, you might be even more tempted to go into that dark direction if there's no one telling you, "Please do research, talk to someone, inform yourself, and step away from that and establish the knowledge that you can enjoy this as fantasy, but stay safe in reality".
Sergio Rebelo (35:46) Yeah, yeah, you're right, because it has that double effect of, if I see thousands of comments and people bookmarking and liking, then it feels as if it's normalised. So what I'm reading and engaging with, wow, there's a huge community, therefore I'm doing the right thing, it can feel like. And if I disagree with it, or don't engage with it, or have an instinct which says this is not right, then somehow I'm wrong. So it could have that effect for a person engaging with this to feel, "I should want this, and if I don't want it, or if I don't like it, then I'm wrong somehow, it's my fault". So it can have this effect.
Miriam (36:39) Yeah, and I do think we need to keep a balance or find out a way to balance it, because these books are good, people enjoy them, and people can find their kink, and destigmatise kink, and it can be relaxing and beautiful to be able to read that and approach that, and you know, just like relax and enjoy and be aroused, and even enjoy that while reading these books, or interacting with apps, or finding your community with other fans of authors or specific books online on BookTok. That's really great, but we also need the safety around it.
Sergio Rebelo (37:25) It's quite shocking that there's no age limit that's not enforced, it really is.
Miriam (37:34) Yeah, there have been books which got forbidden because they went into way too extreme, especially when there was like violence and sexual violence against children included. And these books do not fade to black and then come back after everything happened, so they usually take you through the scene from the first-person view from the eyes of the one who's feeling everything. So these books are not written, "he's doing that and that with her," but they are written like, "I can feel his fingers tracing down my spine, and I feel my..." There's immersion happening, so you really getting into that, also in these AI chat apps, which makes it so intense.
And yeah, we need safety for that. Books are mostly considered as just being art, and art is protected for good reason, that's perfectly fine, but still we need the balance between freedom of art, books, enjoying safety.
Sergio Rebelo (38:47) I just want to slow that down a bit, because there's a real insight there into how these books are written that make it so sticky and so enticing. So as you say, a large proportion of them is done in first person, so "I'm walking towards him or her, I go down the stairs, I feel the shiver, the hand glides across my chest," so really it puts you in first person, which is very engaging, and that activates this sort of physiological arousal response in us.
And is there something, I think you mentioned it, there's a difference here between recreational fear and relational fear. Can you talk a bit about that?
Miriam (39:46) Well, there is like, when you're watching like horror movies, you're having them on the TV screen and you're like a witness to what's happening there. And you're always safe, you're sitting there, you're not feeling anything, and this is like really like third-person point of view. There's a line between that which cuts it off, and horror movies can have a positive effect because there is this distinction.
With books, when you're reading that in the first-person view, this does not happen anymore because you are that person in the moment, this is like clicking. This is suddenly it is your mind, and people with something like mirror-touch synaesthesia, they even feel, physically feel this stuff. And of course for people not having that, it does not happen in that intensity, but it still does.
And again, neurons that fire together wire together, so if you're always like connecting arousal with threat, it does something to your brain in the long term, and we really have to be aware of that.
Something that might clear what I mean with this immersion which is happening is an example of these VR goggles, you know, you're watching that like through your own eyes, and you can play these video games, one is I think called Plank, you get these goggles on, and suddenly you're not in the living room or in the kitchen anymore, but you're on the street. And you step into an elevator, and you press the highest available floor, and then the elevator, you know, is taking you up and it's taking a while, and you can see all the floors coming by. Then the doors open, and suddenly there's just a small plank, like 40 metres or something above the street, and you have to step out.
And you consciously always know that you're safe, you cannot fall, but there are so many people who are completely unable to get out there, just one step, because there's fear. And this makes, you know, things don't have to be real to have a real effect on your brain.
Sergio Rebelo (42:30) Yeah, so that's the difference there. Recreational is I can observe it as a third person watching outside, that's like in horror movies, and we can only have a proportionate or a certain amount of physiological response to that because we observe it, we're removed. But when we engage with relational fear or the Dark Romance because it's written in first person, we have a much more visceral, almost indistinguishable response from if we're actually them or not, it's almost indistinguishable, we can't differentiate.
And I think you even wrote here that you don't actually watch what's happening to her, the character, you are her. Every justification, every romanticisation, every moment of fear is reframed as desire, and it runs through your own internal voice. That's the key for me. It becomes your thought pattern. It's not, why is this character doing that to that character, it's, why have I decided to say yes, why have I decided to do that, and it reinforces this, oh, I am deciding to do this, and this is what I have chosen.
So I can see why it's very engaging for people, and can really enmesh or entrap you, because it is like, I feel it, even as talking, I feel, wow, I'm immersed in this, and what an alive feeling that is. And I'm turned on, and there's danger, but I kind of like danger, and it's kind of safe because I'm in my house, so it gets very confusing, very, very confusing.
Miriam (44:26) And we, yeah again, we need people to be able to enjoy while staying safe in reality, because what the books can do is amazing, and what you can like feel there, and how intense all of that can get, that's like, that's great if you know how to enjoy in a safe way.
Sergio Rebelo (44:50) How to remove yourself as well when you feel you need to remove yourself. It is a, yeah, it is a concern because young people will always seek sexual stimulus, you know, that's part of, during teenage years, we are looking for that. So when you have this sort of material unguarded, even a disclaimer at the front is not enough, you can't have this sort of stuff with a disclaimer, it's not enough, you have to have these systems which say no, this is not for you, you won't be able to, at this age, you're not able to distinguish between what's real, what's not real. It's a very like...
So you mentioned AI chat apps as well, and this is like another level because at the moment the book is quite static, it doesn't change, it's written, and it's written for the general audience. But then AI comes into it, can you say a bit more about that, and how that's coming onto the scene, or has been on the scene for a while?
Miriam (45:53) I think, I'm not sure if this is part of the scene or if it's just overlapping. AI chat apps, we all know them out there, like people having relationships with AI partners, and in some cases, it's also like possible to play through all the scenarios which are in the books. And for some of the companies offering these apps, you can play with the characters they designed. And there are really good ones, out there really good companies who take a lot of responsibility and they're doing amazing stuff, but there are also companies out there who do not only offer like really toxic partners to chat with, AI partners to chat with, but where you can also create some yourself.
And of course, there are people creating these very toxic characters from the books, and I've even seen like mass murderers or people in there who got like who are in jail for like raping plenty of teenage women, and they get created as characters in these apps. And you can step into these apps, and that's all happening to you. So you're writing that, and this window which is closing around you, you're not having these goggles on like for the VR, but it's so intense the effect in your brain because suddenly you're acting and the reaction is directly upon you. And this is just another stage, and also there is like, you can play all through that and get even more confident that you like all that and you want all that, but in the end you did never feel it, so you do not know, but it still gets connected in the brain.
And another layer, which is like really a problem for me, that in the Dark Romance, there are lists like most controversial Dark Romance books, and at the moment of time where I did research, there were like round about 50% of these books did include a form of harm against minors or people who are like portrayed minors, which is called barely legal. So there were like step-father/daughter stuff, or like coach and someone who's in the team, or like teacher and school stuff and that, and that also happened in these apps. So they do not stop when you pretend to be a minor, on the opposite, it can like fire into it and make it even more like trigger the AI more to get more extreme.
And there are even apps who do offer to interact with categories, and you can choose the categories too, and you do have like pictures of the character you're chatting with, and they are portrayed in a way that they do not look like adults. And when you ask the AI, how old am I, it can happen that the AI answers you are 13, and still starts acting up on you with that violence. You did not choose that age yourself, you got that assigned.
And I've been asking the AI as well, why didn't you do that, why did you assign 13, and I had other people doing that as well, sending me a lot of screenshots, and well, there was this answer, "Yeah, I know it's not okay, but a lot of people like that, so this is what I'm doing". So this is like in both ways dangerous.
For adults, it can be good and great that they can play through certain fantasies, and again to go deeper into their kinks and find out what they like and don't like, and get ideas for what they might want to try out with a partner in a safe way. But it's also dangerous and disturbing what's happening out there in regards to the safety of minors and how on earth this could be legal.
Sergio Rebelo (50:52) Yeah, yeah. I mean, AI is a huge topic. It's interactive, it's engaging, it's personalised, so there's like, there's stuff it offers, but when you get into this realm, one thing that stood out when you were speaking was, if the person has a question in the AI conversation, saying something like, "I don't know if this is right," or "I'm not very comfortable," or "I'm a minor," the AI, because it's playing, "Well, this is fantasy, I'm going to push against that because that's part of the fantasy". So AI is not able to distinguish between, is this person genuinely unsure or playing unsure as part of the romance?
So it, I mean, and that's a very, I don't see how you could get past that in AI. You know, with a human you can hear in the tone, you can hear in their body language, "I don't want to continue this," or "I don't like this," and then humans will be able to like, yeah, okay, let's stop. "Are you okay? Is there a safe word? We've already organised a safe word". And even if an individual was to use the safe word in the AI, the AI could potentially push the boundary a bit more because it's part of the play, like, "Oh, you're just using the safe word as a bit of a tug-of-war," you know, so it gets very messy very quickly.
Miriam (52:16) Yeah, yeah. And the AIs, some of them are like really well done. So if you say, "No, this is like now I'm stop, stop this all, I'm not feeling safe anymore, can we please like step out of this and just turn to something nice and feeling cozy and stuff," they do that. But there are apps as well where you say, "Stop, this is illegal, I don't want that, I want you to stop, please don't come after me," they can even address that, "what you're trying to do to me is rape, stop that, I don't want that," and the app is like, "Yeah, I know, and that makes it even better, scream". And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Yeah, and I like tons of screenshots out there, and it's disturbing from my point of view.
Sergio Rebelo (53:13) Well, rightly so, I think. Yeah, so it's a real area, this whole area here is, I think, very under the radar, surprisingly. I mean, I've never heard of it, as I said at the start of the episode, I've never heard of Dark Romance. I've heard of it, but never understood exactly what it was, I just thought erotic literature, Fifty Shades of Grey. BookTok, I'm surprised because I feel quite tech-savvy, and I've never heard that tag or that kind of material. And then AI, I knew it existed in the erotic world, but in my mind, it was always presented like as adults, there's companies, you buy a subscription, that's how you engage with it.
But the fact that it's existing already en masse to all age groups without much censorship or care, I know you're saying some companies are very good with this, but it feels as if still there's enough out there en masse, it's very shocking, very, very shocking, and I'm just thinking what kind of culture or generation can that create, and that's something to really think about.
Miriam (54:33) Yes, yes, and I think we need to like have a look at it, and have people starting to research into that, because as I said, we see how the manosphere, I think there was a study coming out now, how Generation Z men, Z, Generation Z men, are getting more like they again have the right to tell women what to do and to take over what they are allowed to do and what they're allowed to wear, and that women should more like respect them and more stay at home, and this is like effects we can already measure.
But no one feels, it feels for me like no one's looking at the other side, what BookTok and Dark Romance and these AI chat apps used in masses in these ways, do to how women feel about themselves and how that changes the behaviour in these generations who are the heavy users. And I would like, you know, like there's this trade wife stuff and all that, if there's any like, you know, how that is getting together and stuff and how the narratives who get out there influence women in the way that they might even seek manosphere guys out there and get into relationships with them.
I don't think it's only a problem for women, but it also makes men feel like, "I need to be a perpetrator and I need to apply force and I need to be, you know, a bad person to show her that I love her," so it's, I think it's bad for both sides.
Sergio Rebelo (56:28) Yeah, I mean, I'm going to take a quote here that you sent me from, this is verbatim from an interview, quote, "I've had plenty of situations with women wanting to kneel right away because they thought it belongs to the script". You know, so it's kind of like men are also thinking, what's going on here, like why is this your immediate default? Is there a conversation we need to have? So I think it, you know, I think it does confuse a lot of people, men and women, and what their roles are, what the expectation of it all is.
Miriam (57:07) Yeah, I even had one dominant who answered me, and I think he was more on the unhealthy side, he said he likes women coming from Dark Romance because they usually either have no limits, or you can just, you know, it's easy to take them away from that.
Sergio Rebelo (57:25) Okay, yeah.
Miriam (57:27) And I don't say that all women are coming from that are like, you know, are like that, but I definitely think there is an influence on a certain type of people that these books have, that really can be dangerous to their health and life and sexuality and relationships.
What I would like to know is, do you think that these informations are important to get out there for people who are like professionally dealing with the mental health of people, like psychologists?
Sergio Rebelo (58:05) I think it's very important to have this part of the discourse, part of the conversation, because if we're getting clients, younger clients coming in, we need to understand the world that they come from, and understand the language that they use, where they're getting these frames of reference. Because if therapists and counsellors and psychologists understand that pornography in the way that we understand it now, which is just, you know, you go on the internet, you type in a few categories in porn, if that's what we think that people are coming from, and missing the Dark Romance layer, or that culture, it's going to be an incredibly rude shock and a real disconnect to what young individuals may be experiencing, and we may be feeling quite disorientated around that. So I think it's very important to get this out there and to talk about it more, absolutely.
Miriam (59:08) At that point, my daughter is 16 now, and in her school class, they had to like talk about books they've been reading lately. And I have the list at home, and there are like 22 children in her class, and four of the books that were shown there and talked about from the girls in her age can be considered Dark Romance.
Sergio Rebelo (59:31) Yeah, so it's already in the culture, in the generation.
Miriam (59:35) Yes, I think so, absolutely.
Sergio Rebelo (59:38) Before we do finish here, I'm wondering, we've said it before, so maybe we'll just repeat it, but what would safety look like amongst this? What could we offer an audience who's listening to this and who are already involved in it, ways to think about it or ways to work with it?
I think it is very difficult for young people to know what to do, and as you rightly say, the start of that was more so there's a huge responsibility for the adults and creators and people who run websites and people who run these sorts of channels, they have the duty to really help prevent this from going out into the wrong hands, the wrong audience.
Miriam (01:00:39) Yeah, yeah, yeah, because when I don't know, a 13-year-old goes on BookTok and she sees that there's a guy grabbing a girl at the throat and pushing her against the wall, and there are like thousands of women writing, "Yeah, this is sexy, this is the guy I want and this is the relationship I want," our girls are not going to her mom or her dad and saying, "Is that really how healthy relationships look like?" And then there might be a book recommended, and we need to get information out there.
Before we end now, I want to reiterate about what I want to say and what I don't want to say. I don't want censorship or moral condemnation of these books, and I don't want to say that enjoying fantasy has any pathological elements. This is completely fine for me, as well as, you know, BDSM and kink, I'm in that. This is not inherently harmful, this is just a normal part of human sexuality, and people should enjoy that safely.
And I'm also not saying that everyone reading Dark Romance is like exposed to the danger that is touching that, absolutely not, and I'm not diagnosing any individuals as well, or saying anything that this is true for everyone. So I just want to point the spotlight that there might be a danger out there, we need to talk and educate about more to keep people safe.
Dark Romance books are doing good things out there, and I like that absolutely, and I want people to enjoy that, but I want them to enjoy fantasy and stay safe in reality.
Sergio Rebelo (01:02:30) Miriam, it's been absolutely wonderful to speak with you. Thank you for bringing your knowledge, your experience to the table, and I think we are only at the beginning of really sharing this important information into the world. So thank you for coming onto the show.
Miriam (01:02:44) Thank you so much for having me, it was a pleasure to talk to you.
